3D Animation is overrated!

[Chilerkle]

I think photorealistic 3D animation is perfect as special effects animation in live action movies!

I don't hate 3D computer animation I just think it is overrated! Photorealistic 3D animation is good for videogames if game developers don't want cartoony character design for their games but that is all I think 3D Photorealism is good for in Animation!

Cartoony 3D animation is okay but I still prefer 2D digital and traditional cell animation over 3D computer animation.

I hate claymation it's looks crappy and cheap!
Puppet Animation or Stopmotion animation is cool but I wouldn't make it myself. I consider Puppet and Stopmotion animation to be in the 3D animation category but they're too time consuming and I bet they're even more expensive to produce than cel animation.

[LanceITP]

I like 2D animation a lot more than 3D. You can do things in 2D, that would be difficult to pull off in 3D. And photorealistic 3D animation? Come on... Why don't you just video tape live actors? Sheesh.

I've only seen one extremely good 3D animated movie, and because of that, my expectations for 3D is, now, very high. To be brief, "If you can do it in 2D, so too can it be done in 3D." Another thing, is that I've heard realistic 3D animation is easier to do than cartooney 3D.

[Terro]

I disagree.

Both mediums branch from the same basic foundation. Yeah, you see 3D animations more then 2D these days because 3D allows you to separate the artist from the animator, something that was pretty impossible in the golden days.

Just a different tool to visualize the imagination of a storyteller. 3D has a brilliant work flow process from the start to the end. It has a lot more tools at the animators disposal.

2D has that traditional feel to it. You know that the vision comes directly from the animators. This is the reason that 2D will always be around.

Always keep in mind that 3D animators have much of the same training as 2D. Some may not need to be able to draw as well, but when it comes to dissecting the way things move. They are equal. The only difference is that they have models that are completed for them to be animated. 2D is very similar. You have to study character sheets if your a part of a team. Most of the time the characters you will be brining to life won't be of your creation. You have to adapt in 2D just like our 3D counterparts.

[Ima Gooner]

im reluctant in posting in this thread mainly because there have been numerous similar discussions, but im with terro. It shouldn't be gangs, 2D vs 3D, both are forms of animation. Its also insulting to me to say 2D is harder than 3D and claymation is crappy. Watch some Aardman animations or Tim Burtons early work if you havent already. Anyway, Terro hit it on the head, well said mate.

[vlasvlasvlas]

i prefeer 2d spirit all the time!! :)

[Squash-n-Stretch]

3D Animation is overrated!

Slightly. But don't mistake your opinion for fact. Just because I agree does not fool me into believing it is fact either.


I hate claymation it's looks crappy and cheap!

What a silly and shortsighted statement. Claymation is fantastic. Watch A Nightmare Before Christmas and some of Ardmans best stuff and see if you still have the same opinion.[/QUOTE]

Puppet Animation or Stopmotion animation is cool

didn't you just say it was crappy and cheap?

I bet they're even more expensive to produce than cel animation.

Based on what?

[2much4U]

I personally prefer 3D, but that's only because I'm familiar with it. Both have their own strengths and weaknesses. It really depends on the look and feel that you are trying to convey. For example, 2D is a good choice if you want your animation to be cartoony, while 3D is preferable if your looking for a more realistic/abstract type of style.

[NOOB!]

I like the blend of the two.And i agree with terro and Gooner.

Please don't make this a 2d VS 3d forum.The forum may have a bias,but i still luv sum good 3dness!!

[Chilerkle]

I like the blend of the two.And i agree with terro and Gooner.

Please don't make this a 2d VS 3d forum.The forum may have a bias,but i still luv sum good 3dness!!

I never said I hated 3D animation just that I think its overhyped. I loved 3D cartoons I'm just not too thrilled about them as a lot of people are.

The crew that made Chicken Run and Wallace and Grommit looks too good to be made of clay. My opinion was formed because I saw a lot of horrible looking claymations or I just didn't like gumby!

If you love to make 3D toons than all power to you!

I didn't want to flame bait or anything I just wanted know if others felt the same way.

I love 3D videogames though. I think videogames and Live action movies have made the most of the 3D animation's capabilities.

[AllenM]

I do both and 2D always felt more honest to me. The applications involved in completing some of my 3D scenes always agitated me. It's mostly because I don't like the idea of combining different mediums, i.e. wrapping 3D models with textures made from real photos. Don't even get me started with the backgrounds. I don't feel as good about myself as a 3D artist for just that reason. Especially since they just keep making things easier for people. My biggest satisfaction comes from the completed film itself, the culminated styles and skill of the music, sound effects, art and visual effects, scripts, editing and post pro work that is the product of my vision as a director. If I was just an artist, I would spend most of my time in front of Photoshop and Toon Boom instead of Maya, 3D just doesn't provide that personal satisfaction, even more so now with growing improvements in machinima technology.

[Terro]

To some extent I do agree with Allen. Personally I find more joy in 2D, just feels more liberating and expressive of ones style. But as I said before, I respect 3D animator friends to the fullest extent.

[Ferx]

2D and 3D is only a medium of expression. I agree with Allen, the satisfaction comes from completed film (or work, or draw, or paint or whatever :D) but for me, like Mick says :D ,"I can't get enough satisfaction" . Ever want to explore new ways, trying to evolution and be best :) (is a hard way hahahha :D ) Its incredible when you can put your ideas, fantasies, imagination or a history you want to tell, on some medium and share with people ( says novels, music, paints, sculptures, frescos, films, multimedia shows, performances, tv, videos, etc.) I respect all artists. I love 2D and 3D, a great "menage a troi" :D

[tallsmartman]

As a musician, I have found an interesting comparison which most non-musical people don't ever think of.

But first off (for the record) I love both styles of animation. I think both can be very artistic and well done. In my opinion there seems to be more 3D animation that is poorly made than 2D animation, it's just easier to make. I can buy a program and use the models that come with it and animate something. It will likely not be very good (trust me, it took me a long time to make a generic penguin jump in poser). On the other hand, it seems to take a bit more commitment to come up with anything even presentable in 2D animation. However, it still takes great skill to make REALLY GOOD 2D or 3D animation.

I compare this to making music these days in comparison to making music back before computers were involved. You notice that the old (I mean OLD, not A-Team old, Bonanza old) shows almost always had at least decent but usually good music. The reason is, it took a considerable education (like 2D animation) to get anywhere at all. You need to learn the many aspects of notation, music theory, and you couldn't ever preview it, you needed to know in your head what it would sound like. Now with computers (which I love and use all the time for my music) you can pretty much spend $300-$400 for 2 programs and make something that SOUNDS good because of the SOUND, not because of any skill or talent. (like in 3D, you can produce something decent for super cheap) at least that's what lamens will think.

When in reality, you can create very artistic work with 3D animation. Same with music and computers. Of course the comparisons end here, because 2D and 3D are different media types, where as the computer music is trying to emulate real instruments for a cheaper cost. Any computer musician would switch to live players if he could afford it.

Anyway, that's where my musical mind led me.

I like cartoony 3D animation as well as 2D. I like all of Pixar's movie's except for bug's life, oh and I havn't seen the rat one yet.

But I also LOVE LOVE LOVED the Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children movie. Even though MOST of it was mocap, it was GREAT. I think that movie was perfect for 3D semi-realistic animation.

Anyway, I don't think 3D animation is overrated. I think it is underutilized to it's fullest potential much of the time, but that's it.

-MW

p.s. thank God for Firefox... my PC froze right as I finished this, but it saved it... OOOOOOO YES!

[Mchilly]

2d and 3d animation is okay with me...any its still belong to animation category :D

[beerrider]

To the original post: 3d animation is good for solo projects as 1 person can´t draw hundreds of pictures (ok can but think of the time)

and as for the clay - look at some of the wallace and gromit fer christs sake it rocks:o

[Maryfill]

To the original post: 3d animation is good for solo projects as 1 person can´t draw hundreds of pictures (ok can but think of the time)

and as for the clay - look at some of the wallace and gromit fer christs sake it rocks:o

It all depends on how much time you have. I've created a film using flash, I did about 30 000 drawings+350 backgrounds and it took me about 2 years to complete. I spent time leisurely working my way through it and the satisfaction now is amazing; it's been bought by a Russian TV channel. Anything's possible with 2D as far as I'm concerned and I did the whole thing on my own.

I've tried 3D, and found it so time consuming and unproductive. There doesn't seem to be any artistic expression with it so I gave it up.

[flashcartoons]

ah so you made it in flash, that saving the fairytale is great

whats your plan next? new cartoon? teaching? online tutorials?

i would like to learn off ya, you got a great style

[Ferx]

I've tried 3D, and found it so time consuming and unproductive. There doesn't seem to be any artistic expression with it so I gave it up.

The artistic expression is not matter about the medium. Mybe you can express better in 2D, that is a differnt thing. You found 3D unproductive and unartistic, but is not the fault of 3D medium :D. Think this, Michelangelo was a genius in 2D (painting) and 3D (sculpture) :D

[beerrider]

heh yeah, I like 2d much more too but with 3d i like that you create the character and then use it as puppet.

Personally I am a big fan on non-computer animations, ofcourse computer is the best thing to put the hand drawn images in line for an a animation.

I will be getting my personal animating desk in a month or 2 so after that i will be more qualified to speak on the subject.


PS!~old man and the sea is the greatest animation around (waterpaint on glass - if I am not mistakeing)

[Maryfill]

The artistic expression is not matter about the medium. Mybe you can express better in 2D, that is a differnt thing. You found 3D unproductive and unartistic, but is not the fault of 3D medium :D. Think this, Michelangelo was a genius in 2D (painting) and 3D (sculpture) :D
Ok maybe I should have made myself more clear. I find computer 3d animation uninspiring to use. Such masterpieces made in claymation as Wallace and Gromit are fantastic and I love them, they're not done on the computer which as I stated lacks personality and style in my opinion which is what's great about 2D. I'm not knocking manual claymation which contains unavoidable style. Personally I preffer the old fashioned stylistic look of 2D animation as it'll contain character whether a stick figure dancing about or a feature length Disney film :)

[Vladimir]

i find 3d much more easy for me then 2d since i am not a great drawer, 3d can be much like sculpting when you use professional grade tools like zBrush, and 3dsMax and Maya. zBrush is basically that, a 3d scupting tool, you can create a amazing piece of art with zbrush, and then take or max and make it come alive. To me the only way to get the satisfaction and feel of 3d is to create it from ground up. Poser and other low grade 3d programs just animating and they dont usually do a good job, or not as good a job as 3dsm or maya, i would say poser is more for renderings and not animations even though it does have that option you just dont have as much to work with as you do in maya or 3dsm.

[Harryvni]

"Market is a king"
They have drive 2d animator in Disney to put their pencil in the box.
Sadly, the revenue from 2D film very low rather than 3D film.
News link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/business/media/18disney.html?ex=1129694400&en=315457c38be5954f&ei=5087&mkt=bizlink1

I don't wanna keep my ego to stay in the medium that have low revenue.
Yeah, I love animation and I love money too :D
So, I jump in to 3D. Now I fall in love to make 3D animation.

[Chilerkle]

"Market is a king"
They have drive 2d animator in Disney to put their pencil in the box.
Sadly, the revenue from 2D film very low rather than 3D film.
News link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/business/media/18disney.html?ex=1129694400&en=315457c38be5954f&ei=5087&mkt=bizlink1

I don't wanna keep my ego to stay in the medium that have low revenue.
Yeah, I love animation and I love money too :D
So, I jump in to 3D. Now I fall in love to make 3D animation.

I agree that all animation is an artform! I just have a personal love for 2D animation!

I'm just sad that all the animated films are 3D now!
I love some 3D films like Shrek, Shrek II, Hoodwinked and Toy Story I and II, Finding Nemo, A Bug's Life, the Incredibles!
Antz was okay!

Doogal was a major stinker of an animated film!

People also forget(non-animators to be exact) that 3D animation is based off the principles of 2D animation! Meaning sequential art puppets,clay,or 3D computer models are based off the principles of 2D animation(cell animation)

I however want to make a 2D animated film or TV series that will re-ignite a passion for 2D animation!
Don't get me wrong 3D animation is cool and I don't want it to disappear either! I want to see both 2D and 3D animated features in the movie theaters!
I don't plan on making cell animation too expensive! I'm glad my computer can achieve the same asethetic and save me time and money! However I don't want my animation to look crappy and cheap! I guess I'll draw my characters frame by frame!

However I have to admit Cell shaded Animation is 3D and it looks cooler than most 3D animation in my opinion!
I'm glad that Animation has as many styles as there are animators!

[Zandoid]

wow, ok, I started reading some posts and briefly glanced at others, so hopefully I'm not just regurgitating what someone else has already said. But be that the case, I'm just stating my opinion and putting it out there.

I've worked with both 2D and 3D, and I love each of them equally cause I've felt some of the magic that you can get from each of them, plus too they both can be wonderful to watch when produced right.

Now coming to the fact that it seems to be 3D is somehow taking over and that it's pretty much the only thing being produced, I put it down to this...the power of 3D's somewhat new compared to traditional methods and studios and majority of audiences are still in somewhat awe by this (plus too it's an exciting time because artists and developers are finding out new things/techniques and new ways in which to enhance this method - like discovering a new civilization or something and learning about its culture [maybe poor analogy] ). But eventually, I believe the aw and hype surrounding 3D will eventually peak, then it'll gradually balance out with 2D and so forth - ie. 2D stuff will start coming back into the spot-light, sharing the stage.

How long until this will eventually come about? I don't know, but when studios and companies have something really good, they like to use it up as much as they can before it becomes "normal" to the audience. (for those that are looking for signs, then check out this film that's in production - "Enchanted", it's incorperating traditional 2D animation - it's a start)

It's like having a new toy and spending more time playing with that when you first get it and not playing with your old ones, but eventually you end up getting somewhat tired of the new toy and start playing with your other ones as well.

But anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.

[Maryfill]

wow, ok, I started reading some posts and briefly glanced at others, so hopefully I'm not just regurgitating what someone else has already said. But be that the case, I'm just stating my opinion and putting it out there.

I've worked with both 2D and 3D, and I love each of them equally cause I've felt some of the magic that you can get from each of them, plus too they both can be wonderful to watch when produced right.

Now coming to the fact that it seems to be 3D is somehow taking over and that it's pretty much the only thing being produced, I put it down to this...the power of 3D's somewhat new compared to traditional methods and studios and majority of audiences are still in somewhat awe by this (plus too it's an exciting time because artists and developers are finding out new things/techniques and new ways in which to enhance this method - like discovering a new civilization or something and learning about its culture [maybe poor analogy] ). But eventually, I believe the aw and hype surrounding 3D will eventually peak, then it'll gradually balance out with 2D and so forth - ie. 2D stuff will start coming back into the spot-light, sharing the stage.

How long until this will eventually come about? I don't know, but when studios and companies have something really good, they like to use it up as much as they can before it becomes "normal" to the audience. (for those that are looking for signs, then check out this film that's in production - "Enchanted", it's incorperating traditional 2D animation - it's a start)

It's like having a new toy and spending more time playing with that when you first get it and not playing with your old ones, but eventually you end up getting somewhat tired of the new toy and start playing with your other ones as well.

But anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.
Aye, Tiz like a kid with a new toy. It'll ware off eventually and they'll both sit side by side I'm sure.

[jackhalfaprayer]

But eventually, I believe the aw and hype surrounding 3D will eventually peak, then it'll gradually balance out with 2D and so forth - ie. 2D stuff will start coming back into the spot-light, sharing the stage.

Absolutely. We're already seeing that happen with many major properties turning to 2D for TV and straight-to-DVD for production (Marvel and DC properties especially.) With Lasseter in @ Disney we can only hope to see some truly excellent American 2D back in the industry.

3D is great for the non-artist animators. It takes out all the worries of craft and real artistic discipline filling that gap with hardware and lots of software functionality to learn. It's a techie's dream but when it comes down to it all real animators, 2D or 3D, are inescapably built with a pencil and paper.

[jackhalfaprayer]

"Market is a king"
I don't wanna keep my ego to stay in the medium that have low revenue.
Yeah, I love animation and I love money too :D
So, I jump in to 3D. Now I fall in love to make 3D animation.

Good luck with the Uncanny Valley. Dead eyes and lack of emotion kills the best 3D.

[Lisbeth F]

One thing I have noticed about many 3d movies and games is that the characters seem to be weightless, as if they consist of air. I think this is because they havent learned the importance of putting weight in their characters. Like the traditional Disney examples with that sack of potatos or whatever it is:-D Not that I am an expert, but still...

[mes]

^^^agree, I'm not sure if any artist(s) will ever be able to model and animate a perfectly realistic human for the full length of a feature film. But never say never.

I prefer 2D animations mixed with 3D, I think it's the perfect blend, when ur watching a cartoon you're already suspending reality.
good examples:
Futurama
Ghost in the Shell 2
Blood

The over use of 3D animation in live-action movies dates the film and takes away from the film-making itself often times rendering the film unbelievable- it should be used sparingly IMO.

Creating realistic 3D characters is an old aspiration IMO, the technology has been there for quite some time to render photo-realistic humans, but animating an entire photo-realistic 3D character throughout a film is just a task that is too daunting for modelers and animators, the key to this will probably be in motion capture and 3D scanning advancements.

[NOOB!]

yeh they used similar technology for that agent smith vs neo punch...

http://www.youtube.com/v/nKDM43hURrU

[flex4life]

I think 3D animation that looks 2D is da best! See this clip for an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdJQJ-A6l9M

[Evil Demon Creature]

I think 3D animation that looks 2D is da best! See this clip for an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdJQJ-A6l9M

Oh man, that's a great joke right there. Although it's tough to pick up on the sarcasm until you actually click the link.

[flashcartoons]

reminds me of Skyland quality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoFf7wB8ebE

that video you showed of spiderman looks awful

[flex4life]

I think that those Spiderman series are the best animations ever and I'm not kidding. So much work went into making the 3d animation look comic book like.


reminds me of Skyland quality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoFf7wB8ebE

that video you showed of spiderman looks awful

[flashcartoons]

I think that those Spiderman series are the best animations ever and I'm not kidding. So much work went into making the 3d animation look comic book like.


:rotfl

to each his own

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5461/neckoz8.jpg

[Monsieur Rat]

lol filler

[flashcartoons]

this new spiderman is all cell shaded, i never have seen a comic cell shaded and it would look terrible if they did. cell shading is too limited

im glad for the bad 3d cartoons and movies they have came out or are coming out with

people will want to see more 2d, which is better :mickey1

[kevinsano]

One thing I have noticed about many 3d movies and games is that the characters seem to be weightless, as if they consist of air. I think this is because they havent learned the importance of putting weight in their characters. Like the traditional Disney examples with that sack of potatos or whatever it is:-D Not that I am an expert, but still...

Yea, that's why we have "Team Lasseter" over at Pixar to show them how it's done. I think Lasseter was the first person to use 2D animation theory with 3D animation software...

[Pelle]

I like 2d animation with some 3d animation used with it. They used it at Avatar the Airbender, and that looked great to me.

But still, I prefer 2d animation. Although I liked all those 3d animated movies, I missed the character, and I just really like the whole 2d universe. It's so versatile, you can do so many, unlike 3d, because you work in a kinda 'real' environment.

[Ferx]

this new spiderman is all cell shaded, i never have seen a comic cell shaded and it would look terrible if they did. cell shading is too limited

im glad for the bad 3d cartoons and movies they have came out or are coming out with

people will want to see more 2d, which is better :mickey1

??
Are many and I say many many really bad 2D animations. Again, is not matter of the medium, is matter of talent and creativity. Wich is better? The Michelangelo's David sculpture? or Michelangelo´s sistine chapell paintings?? I want to see both and for sure I really enjoy both

[Meschaffe]

this new spiderman is all cell shaded, i never have seen a comic cell shaded and it would look terrible if they did. cell shading is too limited

im glad for the bad 3d cartoons and movies they have came out or are coming out with

people will want to see more 2d, which is better :mickey1

When used properly, cel shading can yield impressive results. Just look at Jet Set Radio and Okami (I think it's wrong the best examples I can think of are games). As long as it suits the project and contributes something to the overall execution, I'm for it. Of course, any effect can be over-used or poorly done, just like the Spiderman series, which I'm glad is over.

[Chilerkle]

??
Are many and I say many many really bad 2D animations. Again, is not matter of the medium, is matter of talent and creativity. Wich is better? The Michelangelo's David sculpture? or Michelangelo´s sistine chapell paintings?? I want to see both and for sure I really enjoy both

Even though I think 3D animation is overrated I don't necessarily hate it.
I think puppet animation is the coolest form of 3D animation though it is far more time consuming than Digital 3D animation.

I still like 2D animation more than 3D animation but I'm glad both formats exist.
3D animation makes me appreciate 2D animation even more.
I might dabble into 3D animation after I master 2D animation.
Though I think cel-shaded animation looks cool if done right!
I admit cel-shaded animation looks horrible if no effort is put into it!
However that is true of all animation if no effort is put into the quality of the art and storytelling.

[rindolphus]

You know. I've noticed that 3d modelling can help you in 2d animation. Specially with backgrounds. Not that the actual product against which you animate is the 3d model, but it helps you get the perspective right.

You make a mock up of the room/street where your characters interact in your 3d environment (with simple shapes; say a loveseat is just a cube or a trashcan is just a cilinder). Once you got everything in its place you rotate your camera to match the camera moves and angles in your storyboard indications and take snapshots of the whole scene (in lines). You import your snapshots into flash or photoshop, or whatever software you do your backgrounds with and voilá, instant perspective lines with the right proportions and distance of objects. After that, you just draw your background on a layer on top and you will get your composition perfectly every time. Big time saver.

[mambo]

I don't hate 3D computer animation I just think it is overrated! Photorealistic 3D animation is good for videogames if game developers don't want cartoony character design for their games but that is all I think 3D Photorealism is good for in Animation!

You need to keep it in perspective. Trends in animation come and go. 3D animation is going to be for a very long time to come. As it becomes more realistic and more sophisticated it's going to carve out it's own niche in the animation world. In fact it already has.

I'm not so sure that making a comparison of 3D animation to 2D animation is all that accurate. They're both tools and slightly different approaches to the same job... conveying a story. In fact 3D animation has no choice but to be based on the fundamental principles of 2D animation.

Cartoony 3D animation is okay but I still prefer 2D digital and traditional cell animation over 3D computer animation.

In general I prefer 2D over 3D. But then again... it's the perspective. 2D has had a long time by comparison to reach the point it's at. 3D, comparatively speaking has been around a very short time.

I hate claymation it's looks crappy and cheap!

Ah that's unfortunate and speaks volumes more about what you've seen in claymation than it does about the actual art of claymation. I suggest that you take some time to explore what can and has been done with claymation before jumping to such a rash conclusion. You might be pleasantly surprised.


Puppet Animation or Stopmotion animation is cool but I wouldn't make it myself. I consider Puppet and Stopmotion animation to be in the 3D animation category but they're too time consuming and I bet they're even more expensive to produce than cel animation.

And?.... You seem to have some real gripes about any other form of animation other than 2D cell animation. It's a shortsighted way to look at the varied world of animation. Really... get out there and explore some of the amazing films and shorts done in all the mediums you profess to hate and you might find that you actually see some things you like.

FWIW - I'm a huge fan of 2D cell animation. Nothing is ever going to change that. But there is always going to be something new and exciting to check out. It doesn't have to replace 2D... it can happily co exist along side 2D. There are a whole myriad of factors that dictate what animation medium becomes popular and stays popular. Who knows maybe some day there won't be 2D animation. At least not in the commercial sense that we know it today. I'm not looking forward to that day though.

Mambo

[kdog]

That's a really good point, I've been wanting to try that approach since I saw THIS THREAD (http://www.toonboom.com/support/forums/toonBoomStudio/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=2804;sta rt=0) a while back. I can see all sorts of possibilities for BG's, especially for an outdoor environment. You could create the landscape of an entire "world" in 3D, then be able to have your 2D chars travel around it & interact within it.

I've downloaded both Blender & Anim8or. Although I haven't yet put the time into learning either, it is something that I definitely want to play with.

[Chilerkle]

And?.... You seem to have some real gripes about any other form of animation other than 2D cell animation. It's a shortsighted way to look at the varied world of animation. Really... get out there and explore some of the amazing films and shorts done in all the mediums you profess to hate and you might find that you actually see some things you like.

FWIW - I'm a huge fan of 2D cell animation. Nothing is ever going to change that. But there is always going to be something new and exciting to check out. It doesn't have to replace 2D... it can happily co exist along side 2D. There are a whole myriad of factors that dictate what animation medium becomes popular and stays popular. Who knows maybe some day there won't be 2D animation. At least not in the commercial sense that we know it today. I'm not looking forward to that day though.

Mambo

I never intended to sound elitist I just find 3D animation to be overrated I never said it was crap just given too much attention.

I do like puppet animation I have no intention of making it though because it's too tedious!

If I were to ever decide to make Puppet Animation I'd just design the characters and have someone else shoot and build the puppets in motion while I composite them over computer generated backgrounds.
Unless there was someway I could capture the puppets on a computer and rig their digitized images with bones like Anime Studio rigs vector points I might consider it.

I never said computer animation is bad I just will always love 2D animation.

The only claymation I've been exposed to was Gumby and I thought Gumby was absolute crap. However claymation just isn't a style I'm crazy about but I'd be very surprised if someone or a group of stellar individuals were able to pull off a stellar animation using clay.

[kdog]

However claymation just isn't a style I'm crazy about but I'd be very surprised if someone or a group of stellar individuals were able to pull off a stellar animation using clay.

Maybe some of these will change your mind. Particularly the Wallace & Grommit series. I put titles I'm familiar with in bold. I'd suggest googling some of the titles below & then determine whether or not good animation is possible with clay. It may never be your cup of tea, but saying you'd be surprised if anyone could pull off a stellar animation with clay seems like an overly bold & premature statement.

Also we have a clay-animator right here on the forum, can't remember the name offhand, but he's got a really nice looking WIP posted already.

Examples of clay animation
Gumbasia (Art Clokey, 1955)
Clay or the Origin of Species (Eliot Noyes Jr., 1965)
He Man and She Bar (Eliot Noyes Jr., 1972)
Plastiphobia (Fred O'Neal & Val Federoff, New Zealand, 1973)
Morph (Peter Lord and Dave Sproxton, 1976)
Mountain Music (Will Vinton and Bob Gardiner, 1976)
Martin the Cobbler (Will Vinton Studio, 1977)
Rip Van Winkle (Will Vinton Studio, 1978)
Claymation (Will Vinton Studio, production documentary film, 1978)
Legacy (Will Vinton Studio, 1979)
The Little Prince (Will Vinton Studio, 1979)
Baby Snakes (Bruce Bickford, for Frank Zappa, 1979)
The Christmas Gift (Will Vinton Studio, a long-form Paul Stokey music video, 1980)
Creation (Will Vinton Studio, featuring Joan Gratz, 1980)
Clay Crow (Alexandr Tatarskiy, USSR, 1981)
Good Night, Little Ones (Alexandr Tatarskiy, animated caption for a TV Show under the same name, USSR, 1981)
The Great Cognito (Will Vinton Studio, featuring Barry Bruce, 1982)
Last Year's Snow (Alexandr Tatarskiy, USSR, 1983)
The Trap Door (Terry Brain and Charlie Mills, 1984)
Arnold Escapes From Church (Craig Bartlett, 1988)
A Claymation Christmas Celebration (Will Vinton Studio, TV special, 1987)
Vanz Kant Danz (Will Vinton Studio a John Fogerty music video, 1987)
Return to Oz (Will Vinton studio, 1988) (Knome King scenes)
Meet the Raisins (Will Vinton Studio, TV special, 1988)
Speed Demon (Will Vinton Studio, for Michael Jackson's Moonwalker film, 1989)
Claymation Comedy of Horrors (Will Vinton Studio), TV special 1989)
A Claymation Easter (Will Vinton Studio, TV special 1989)
The Raisins: Sold Out (Will Vinton Studio, TV special, 1990)
The Creature Comforts series (Aardman Studios, starting in 1990)
The Arnold Waltz (Craig Bartlett, 1990)
Arnold Rides a Chair (Craig Bartlett, 1991)
The Wallace and Gromit film series (Aardman Studios, starting in 1992)
Plasmo (television series, Anthony Lawrence, 1996 AUS)
Rex the Runt (television series; Richard Goleszowski, 1998 UK)
Celebrity Deathmatch (television series; Eric Fogel, 1998 USA)
The PJs television series (Will Vinton Studio, 1999)
Chicken Run (Aardman Studio, Nick Park & crew, 2000)
Gary and Mike (Will Vinton Studio, television series, 2001)
Taiko no Tatsujin (Kids Station, Japan, television series, 2005)
Moral Orel

[mambo]

Nice list!!!!!!!

Yeah for claymation you could do worse than Will Vinton.:)

[mambo]

I do like puppet animation I have no intention of making it though because it's too tedious!

If I were to ever decide to make Puppet Animation I'd just design the characters and have someone else shoot and build the puppets in motion while I composite them over computer generated backgrounds.
Unless there was someway I could capture the puppets on a computer and rig their digitized images with bones like Anime Studio rigs vector points I might consider it.


Again.. if you're not willing to go through the process of what it takes to animate in the stop motion style then stop motion animation is most definitely not for you. What you consider tedious... stop motion animators consider just another part of the job.

The only claymation I've been exposed to was Gumby and I thought Gumby was absolute crap.

Again... you have to get it in perspective. Gumby is crap in comparison to what? You need to open up your mind and consider when Gumby was being made. Consider what else was being produced in that same era. Consider the technology and the budgets and the whole ball of wax. It may change your view of it once you actually understand more about it.

However claymation just isn't a style I'm crazy about but I'd be very surprised if someone or a group of stellar individuals were able to pull off a stellar animation using clay.

Again this only tells me that you've not really spent much time watching what being done out there in terms of claymation. It's pretty hard to be 'crazy' about a style when you don't know much about it.:rolleyes:

[Black Spot]

I downloaded Antics V3 to get some new poses, which wasn’t that easy. Then I found I could make one of the characters cross-eyed and stick his fingers up his nose - fun ensued. Both 2D and 3D have their pluses and minuses. With 3D all the work is at the beginning (if you make your own characters), with 2D it’s pretty well evenly based throughout.

As to claymation, I love Morph and anyone who has that kind of patience has earned my respect – as long as it’s funny. :D

[Carlykins]

I really love 2d animation, im doing a degree in computer animation and for 2 years we were made to do both 3d and 2d animation. Now i suck at 3d, n it pulled my grade down, i just cant get into it, i hate using the 3d programs, and doing your poses and then having to do the curve editor to fix everything, i much prefer to sit and draw all my animations its alot more pleasurable for me as an animator and i love all the traditional styles, and flash and vector animation too.

3d is overated, but thats the future I guess. Were constantly told at uni by lecturers that 2d is dying out n 3d is the future and there very biased towards 3d. i understand why coz its taking off, and good luck to it, i love all kinds of animation, and i dont beleieve 2d animation will ever die out, its an art form that cant be replaced.

[Zandoid]

Ok, I just want to pick on a few points about this whole "3D is overated" thing. Now, ofcourse I'm impartial to both 2D and 3D, I love both of them as well as other types of animation (like stop/claymation, etc) it's all goodness to me :)

Now, the first point - I think someone said more or less that 3D animation is good for the "non-artistic" animator or something like that. I'll disagree with that. Now, just looking at 3D as a whole, there are many aspecs that "artistic" direction is needed...modeling, texturing (that's not easy either if you're hand painting them), lighting, composition, render setup, posing, animation, etc. Hang on, everything needs artistic direction in 3D, because all the components [no matter how technical they are] need to be setup and done to bring the whole scene to life. One thing off can visually ruin it. So 3D for the "non-artistic" animator? No, animators have to be artistic, it's their job to be. You put someone in a seat and teach them the tools to animate in 3D but not the artistic knowledge to pull off a beautiful animated sequence, it's going to have some terrible results, but if someone has that artistic knowledge and eye for detail, they can pull off amazing animated sequences.
So yeah, on a development level, 3D animation needs just as much artistic direction as 2D animation. (ofcourse I'll point out that motion-capturing is mainly just technical rather then artist since it's up to the actors to pull off a wonderful performance)

Now the second point - the 3D movies. Now I'm not gonna lie, I reckon some of the films that have been whipped up in hollywood have been pretty cheap. I haven't liked them so much, either because it's too childish or visually boring, whatever, I blame the studios for authorising their creations. Now I know I've said this before, either here or somewhere else, but western culture seems to associate full animated features with children as their main target audience, rarely does it seem that they actually make full animated features targeted specifically towards adult audiences. I mean, you only have to look over at japanese anime to get a taste for adult targeted animation, which is probably part of its growing success over in the west.

I just wanna quickly talk on the point of 3D realism and why we probably don't see much of that kinda thing in full animated features at present. Well that's probably mainly because, if a director wants to make their film look that realistic, they'll rather just go out and actually film it. Instead, you're probably more likely to see films with a kind of hyper realism, it's pretty close to realism, but deliberatly holds back on certain aspects and goes all out on others (has more of a stylized quality)...such an example is "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" where they didn't want it to look ultra real, but maintain some of that more anime-ish quality to it. Now that's a smart move, because when you try and achive something like photo-realism but don't quite make the grade in some areas, viewers are going to be more critical of the mistakes in comparison to something that was dileberately made to not look so real. Now, in the future, when and if trends change to making more of that kind of 3D animated movie and when developers iron out alot of what they're doing and really refine the 3D movie making craft, you'll probably see more photo-realistic 3D films.

As i've said I think in my previous post on this particular thread, I don't see 2D animation ever really dying out, it's just that the film industry is going through a phase atm and they're wanting to see where 3D animation [as a relatively new medium] will take them. As it is, disney is working on a new 2D animated feature film, and there was that enchanted film as well. So yeah, don't hate 3D if it's only because it's going to phase out 2D animation, because that's not the case.

Just because there's pens doesn't mean they've stopped making pencils.

I'm not trying to force anyone to change their opinons, just pointing out some information that may give people some better insight into what they're thinking is over-rated.

[TheUltimateCoin]

Being a 3d animator, I also think that 3d animation is a little bit overrated but not to much.

I bet you a lot of 3d animators can make a decent 2d animation too because they have to learn the basics of animation like anyone else. Maybe there drawings aren't so good (maybe just stick figures) but I bet they will know how to time and space everything for a jump or a walk cycle. And ofcourse they won't be used to drawing on paper because they don't usually work on paper.

But before they do make an animation they roughly draw out the scene and everything and base it off of that.

And like 2d animators have there difficulty with inbetweens and such. I know that 3d animation has perfect inbetweens but we also have to edit those, because the animation program (ex maya) doesn't animate for you. You still have to animate everything and put out the poses and watch the animation over and over again to get it right.

And for like 3d animation, I think you need to know a little bit more stuff. This is because you will have to be able to handle the software and be able to figure out problems if something goes wrong. Also the software is always upgrading and you will have to keep up with that all the time.

I don't really understand why people dislike if the 3d model is a puppet. I don't mind at all. Because if it is a puppet then that means it has no life, then when animating it you will bring it to life. Isn't that what animation is?

Don't think I don't like 2d animations tho. I really do like them. I respect how hard they work on it and I enjoy them a lot. But for me I am not a good drawer, so thats why I got into 3d animation.
(sorry if I repeated anything that someone said before)

[Dencore]

As someone who is really interested in animation I really really prefer 2D to 3D animation. That said neither is superior to the other both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I definately feel chills down my spine as high production budgeted 2D animation is being abandoned for 3D everywhere that isn't Asia. Besides "The Princess Frog" I can't really think of any 2D film that can compare to 3D in these aspects. Though thinking about it it makes sense. 2D animation has had a practical monopoly on animation in the mainstream for well over half a century. Yes there was clayanimation and stop-motion but the amount of successful films in those catergories are very few and very far inbetween. Thus it comes to no suprise that when something that can truly rival 2D in terms of mainstream appeal comes out it takes over.

This is very similar to the whole reality TV feista that took place in the turn of the millenium. People never seen shows like Survivor, The Apperentance, and Joe Millionare before. People were getting tired of endless sitcoms and C Directed Dramas. When all was said and done scripted shows had to fight to their fullest during this period. Eventually the market got tired of reality TV, but in turn it was more then just a fad, it established reality TV as standard realized different form of entertainment in the TV space. Look at current TV today, we not only have those same reality shows but as well as have scripted shows that rival hollywood movies. This is probably what's going to happen with 2D, 3D will maintain a strong hold for years (especially with the whole 3D theater effects starting with Toy Story 3) but when all is said and done 3D and 2D animation will coexist thus giving more variety in animation and giving more people what they want and what they are interested in.

[mozen]

k, true claymation can look like crap, but it can also look amazing!
ever seen any Wallace and Grommit films or anything by Aardman? or the Pengu T.V. series

[Wilco Matla]

Does anyone know what sort of techniques are being used in creating an image such as this? http://resim.sanalsayfalar.com/resimler/Oyun/image/Batman_Vengeance.jpg

[shane22]

hmm yes, theres drawing, colouring, and.... hmmmm....:rolleyes:

[shane22]

I think photorealistic 3D animation is perfect as special effects animation in live action movies!

I don't hate 3D computer animation I just think it is overrated! Photorealistic 3D animation is good for videogames if game developers don't want cartoony character design for their games but that is all I think 3D Photorealism is good for in Animation!

Cartoony 3D animation is okay but I still prefer 2D digital and traditional cell animation over 3D computer animation.

I hate claymation it's looks crappy and cheap!
Puppet Animation or Stopmotion animation is cool but I wouldn't make it myself. I consider Puppet and Stopmotion animation to be in the 3D animation category but they're too time consuming and I bet they're even more expensive to produce than cel animation.

hmm i partly agree with the claymation bit ;)

[Zandoid]

Does anyone know what sort of techniques are being used in creating an image such as this? http://resim.sanalsayfalar.com/resimler/Oyun/image/Batman_Vengeance.jpg

Well, to put it short - the batman character is 3D and is composited onto a 2D background. There's nothing overly special going on "technique" wise, just that it's a simple model that's been textured and lit accordingly.

[J6Studios]

the batman character is 3D and is composited onto a 2D background.

Are you sure?? I think it's all Photoshop.

-

[Zandoid]

Are you sure?? I think it's all Photoshop.

-

lol, I'm very sure (100%). It's like asking, is the sky blue?
If you know where to look, you instantly see tell-tail signs of 3D geometry

[Evil]

Mmmmm.... 3d work:p

I am pretty darn sure that is 3d.............

as i have seen some very realistic 2d images made in photoshop and thta but they allways had fine brush marks on them and sploges even with very good artists and so that kind of gives it away all so the way it is against the 2d background if it was 2d it would not look that sharp against it and stand out as mush as tho it shouldnt be there.

[J6Studios]

The sky isn't really blue though!! :D

Ha! I believe you but I've seen some really good Photoshop images like these and I can't tell but I don't do 3D so I really don't have a clue.

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/img/screengrabs/sro06/sro06j.jpg
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/img/screengrabs/sro06/sro06m.jpg

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[Zandoid]

The sky isn't really blue though!! :D

Ha! I believe you but I've seen some really good Photoshop images like these and I can't tell but I don't do 3D so I really don't have a clue.

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/img/screengrabs/sro06/sro06j.jpg
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/img/screengrabs/sro06/sro06m.jpg

-

Don't worry, it comes with experience. Ofcourse there is talent out there though.

Maybe I'm just living under a cleaner sky to see the lovely blue it showcases.

[J6Studios]

Maybe I'm just living under a cleaner sky to see the lovely blue it showcases.

Ha! So right! I'm in Houston and we do have our share of smog!! :D

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[tyree]

I prefer 2d, 2d anime to be exact but I work in 3d. the realities of time, you just cant get the amount of production you can from 3d in 2d. to the last point I have seen some 3d where it was hard to tell that it was 3d both the look and the motion appeared to be 2d but in actuality it was all 3d

[ZigOtto]

yeap, here's an exemple, from supinfocom french school :
http://www.gary-lefilm.com/Fixes/08.jpg
gary-lefilm (http://www.gary-lefilm.com/#)
2D rendering in 3D workflow.
the ony thing revealing the 3D tools is the over-use of smoothness (interpolation) in slow movements. :)

[tyree]

everything is painted that looks good thats how it should be in my opinion

but smoothness and slow movements really isnt a problem if your animation system uses a layer system. you can do 2d pose to pose or page flip animation with your 3d object. where the motions are based on the time to the next pose not interpolation from one key to the next. and keep in mind you dont have to use the 3rd dimension in 3d software you have the option of only using 2 of the axes and treating it like a sheet a paper. you want something to seem like its farther away shrink it. if something is coming closer to the screen dont move the object thru 3d space. enlarge it

[tyree]

here is an example of something using a layer system I found that not everyone knows 3d animation is done on layers and not a single timeline

just 3 poses no key frames. 5 frames between each pose the hair and the lips dont use the same animation system as the body

http://bleed.hereweb.com/pose.htm

you will need adobe shockwave, should auto install