Why the hate?

[sharkcellar]

I realize that I'm gonna get a lotta heat for this but oh well. I know I'm new to this forum and there are protocols and etiquette to follow. But, I'm wondering what's with the hostile attitude towards someone asking about a tutorial? I apologize if this has been brought up before. But, programs like Flash and Toon Boom and After Effects...etc. have opened up opportunities for novices to learn a discipline that used to be in a sort of ivory tower, even if those who were actually involved inside of it worked like sweatshop seamstresses. I think if there is any rebirth of the 2d animation industry in the U.S. it's gonna be from all of the noobs out there with inquisitive minds and the perseverance to actually make something beautiful. This whole dissing of someone because they wanna know how you did something is elitist and wrong-headed, IMHO. Let there be light. Yes, one should learn to make a ball bounce correctly and learn all the other rudiments but sometimes it's learning something seemingly unrelated that makes things make sense, right?

[NOOB!]

1.why would we give u heat for stating your opinion?

2.I don't think tutorial flaming has ever happened here,are u sure your posting on the right forum?

3. i am confused :D

[sharkcellar]

NOOB!

Glad to hear from you. Umm it isn't so much tutorial flaming as it is cold shouldering when some noob asks "Hey, how'd you do that?" The reply is then "Why would I do a tutorial?" or something to that effect. Maybe it isn't here so much, but I've seen it at JA. I mean nothing being done by anybody here is a secret. There's no alchemy to animation just acute observation and tons of patience. Check it, here's a tutorial:

1. Get a DVD of an animated film you love
2. Find a scene or gesture you are particularly crazy about. i.e. The melting behemoth at the end of Nausicaa (trivia: Did you know that none other than Hideaki Anno of Evangelion fame was the hotshot who keyed that scene?)
3. Find yer remote control, or your PS2 controller.
4. Hit pause and slow forward and backward, scrubbing is what it's called, until you understand what's going on.
5. Go over to Flash or Toon Boom and replicate as best you can.
6. Tweak till it looks right.
7. Gloat.
8. Feel shame in the shadow of genius
9. Repeat.

[NOOB!]

ah i see,well i don't have much experience over at JA but i know what ur saying.

but things to consider regarding ur comment about *secrets*

1.The obvious one,not everyone has time for tutorials

2.As an artist,there are certain of things you like to keep to yourself,its a basic human instinct,if i develop a technique that makes my art unique from everyone elses,i can't see myself sharing it anytime soon,because its personal,and as soon as its told, everyone will be doing it.

3.Regarding copying another animation,as u know i'm quite new to animation,but i know that in illustration we do a little something called master copies,but without know the basic fundimentals of drawing,it doesn't help that much.I think the same thing applies to animation.

4.Bouncing Ball : animation techniques are like ice tea,u don't knock em until u tried em,i don't think anyone should let their pride get in the way of good learning.You may have tried some techniques and felt *meh,these don't work* but thats probably because you have the idea in the back of your mind that it will never work,and that leads to you not taking the technique seriously and totally disregarding it.

5.Again about copying,some people might take it too far and not realise it,and Walker and Sangfroid on this forum will know theres a thread that no longer exists that proves this.

...............................

As for AF,we plan to have a number of tutorials up,so don't worry.I think everyone should learn from the *pros* or at least someone with experience,and from that and only that should u go about intergrating your own techniques with it.

Thats why i'm constantly on the search trying to find experienced people to join this forum.

anyway thats my insight,sorry for the essay.

[Terro]

I myself am very open to tutorials, but I know exactly what you mean. On cgtalk they request that you run a search of the forum before you ask for a tutorial. And they are right to ask so. But as far as AF goes, we're very new and our tutorial database is af of now almost non existant, lol. We're in the talks of creating a tutorial only forum. Although I'm not sure how it will work depending on what type of software you use.

For now , if anyone has tutorials they would like to share with the rest of us. Please post them in the coresponding software forums.
But don't worry , no one will take cheap shots at you for asking for help. Just try to do a google search first. People tend to get pissed of at other people looking for tuts if they do a net search and get hundreds of results.

[sharkcellar]

I agree with most of what your saying.

1. As far as time. I can see that, who has any time anymore. But, I'm not talking about full length quicktime tutorials, maybe just a few lines, enough to convey the guts while not giving away any precious stylistic mmm...secrets.

2. Ah the fundamentals. Again I agree mostly. I can't tell you how much of a bummer it is to see another artists who's whole anatomy drawing experience is copying Toriyama. Eeerrgghh... But whatever maintains a youngn's interest is fine with me as long as it isn't hurting anyone. I've seen some sticks that have some scenes that just blow me away. Even if they couldn't draw a human figure to save their life. But, yes one should learn to REALLY draw. I think Richard Williams vituperates on this in the ASK.

3. Yes, learn the bouncing ball but overextend yourself sometimes too. What else is ignorance good for?

4. I totally agree with your comment on copying (see #2) but as they say, if your gonna steal, steal from the best.

Peace,

P.S.
I've just ordered my own copy of the ASK yesterday. Prior to this I was exploiting the library's copies. Damn, I shoulda added that to my tutorial. Support your local library!!!

[Walker]

your 9 step process on learning animation isnt very effective sharkcellar. mainly because your replicating/copying scenes from other animators. You hardly learn anything from doing that as too studying animation and trying to make something new yourself. replicating is too easy. creating is the real challenge.

watching and analyzing every frame with slow mo will help you pick up new techniques. but you have to try and understand why the animator did certain things. Like, how come they held that frame for as long as they did, or how come they drew it that way, or why did they time and space that action the way they did. what was the animator thinking when they did all this.

analyzing is the best way to learn from someone else, not replicating.

[-nelson-]

yes, exactly replicating something isnt as helpful as understanding it and applying it in ur own pieces, but i understand wut ur coming from. yea the melting scene was crazy good. instead of copying an action, create one using similar timing or techniques that walker suggested. like explosions :p

(3 main sources: all synj movies, cowboy bebop the movie, and alien homid console game, just buy it for the animation :D)

[sharkcellar]

Walker,

Ummm...I am advocating analysis with a good dose of trial and error. Of course you wouldn't know how an animator timed a scene initially, but you can discover (or approximate) it by the laborious task of attempt>analyze>tweak>analyze>etc. that's my point. I think you learn a hell of a lot by this method. In fact that's how children learn, they don't get caught up in whether it is "art" or not, they're just learning to do. Besides, "style" is something you develop largely accidentally and evolutionarily anyway. Is evolutionarily a word?

[Walker]

Walker,

Ummm...I am advocating analysis with a good dose of trial and error. Of course you wouldn't know how an animator timed a scene initially, but you can discover (or approximate) it by the laborious task of attempt>analyze>tweak>analyze>etc. that's my point. I think you learn a hell of a lot by this method. In fact that's how children learn, they don't get caught up in whether it is "art" or not, they're just learning to do. Besides, "style" is something you develop largely accidentally and evolutionarily anyway. Is evolutionarily a word?

Im not talking about style or art here. Im talking about learning how to animate. you have the analyzing part right, but your talking about animating the same thing that your analyzing. I Know first hand that you dont learn as much from copying. I copied animations when i was a kid on an old black and white apple computer, i didnt learn squat from doing that. when you start animating from your head and understanding the basics of animation, you will learn alot more.

[MiG]

Hmm, interesting discussion here.
To sharkcellar:
First off I'd suggest that you may be a bit too thin-skinned if you take any of your opening observations seriously.... mebbe better selection of words, "personally".
I know what you mean however, like the others I know what they mean. Tutorials are a serious drain of an artists time and resources and when/if they post one it is like gold. Even if the tut is pure crap, they spent time and effort creating it for you to use, abuse, discard, or whatever. Whether it's a good or a poor tut it should be given huge marks right at the outset simply because it was provided.
To put it into context consider this: I don't know you or your work. You may or may not be an accomplished animator but the fact that I have never seen a tutorial by you is a good example of what I mean.
So to go on, say that you spend countless hours, weeks, months and years honing your talent and learning the craft. You put out some bitchin' animations and ppl start asking you for tutorials on how you achieved this look or managed that effect. At first you may even happily provide a few how-to's but what about after the bazillionth person asks the same question you've heard over and over again, particularly questions that you've answered at least 5 times a day for the past month?
D'ya see where I'm going here? Now, I know you didn't start this to be argumentative so don't take my response as being confrontational or demeaning. You very likely could be at a point that many of us have been at and are feeling the same angst. But the fact is, the answers are out there. An enormous number of tuts exist just waiting to be grabbed up and savoured. But don't expect anyone to hold you by the hand and walk you through them all (there very likely is more available than you could possibly view in one lifetime!), and you should be very thankful to anyone that leads you to or provides you with even a few.
/rant

Now if I can share with you what has helped me, first off the best place to be is rubbing shoulders with the likes of those that hang out here. Also The Brackenwood Forums (http://s7.invisionfree.com/Brackenwood/index.php) have been the best, The AWN Forums (http://forums.awn.com/index.php?) are a good bookmark and even the resources offered by Flash Filmmaker (http://flashfilmmaker.com/) are terrific places to frequent. It takes time and it takes effort, but so does putting forth even a real crappy animation.

It looks as if we joined AF at about the same time. If you happened to join after me, well then, Welcome! If it was before me then, "Hey bro! What's shakin', baby" :p

I kinda think we share a common goal, so if I'm correct in that assumtion then great! If not, oh well. Hope you find what you're looking for.

cheers,
MiG

[Walker]

If you want a good tutorial on animation, then purchase the animators survival kit by richard williams. its the best tutorial to turn too. It will teach you all the basics of industry standard animation. one of my fav books :D

[sharkcellar]

I want to thank all you guys for being pretty cool about this potentially incendiary topic. It's clear to see that we all have our opinions, or perspectives, whatever, on this topic. This is cool and how it should be. I'm glad I joined this board. Peace.

[sharkcellar]

Walker,

Too slow. I'd already ordered it. I'd been checking this book out from the library for months back to back. The ASK is the grail. Support your local libraries!!!

Peace

[MiG]

Walker,

Too slow. I'd already ordered it. I'd been checking this book out from the library for months back to back. The ASK is the grail. Support your local libraries!!!

Peace

Aye, it is! Dick Williams was never the fantastic artist/illustrator/animator that he probably hoped to be (I mean, don't we all want that) but he'll go down in history as being the artist/illustrator/animator that "gave back" to the animation community more than anyone before or since. Some have tried but none have equalled. Of course he did some great stuff in his time, but in his retirement years, when he could easily sit in the sun drinking margaritas and thumb his nose at us, he instead writes the bible of animation for us. Wot a guy!

I hope he lives happily until at least 130yrs just so he can witness some of what we, his progeny can spew out under his guidance.
And if you really care (and I'm sure you do), here's some interesting reading (http://www.toxicuniverse.com/review.php?rid=10003274/) that you might enjoy.

Who'd have thought a Canadian could be so much! :cool:

[NOOB!]

:blink: this topic went a long way without any flaming.

:D happy times!!

[Sangfroid]

i'm confused, when did anyone refuse to explain things on JA? The only times I've ever opted out of doing so is if I absolutly don't have the time to spare (granted more often these days) But none of the advisors on JA do this to my knowlage O_o? You could try reading the advice that is given in response to other queries (work posted). That is the ultimmate tutorial/feedback. Besides at the end of the day a tutorial isn't a magic answer, there simply guides to aid what should be your own indevour into animation and everyone needs a indivudal aproach/advice to help them along depending on what they want to achive.

And besides when ever I do put a tutorial up no one finishes it. So i'm never able to take it to the next step outside of an individual basis *one on one sessions*.

However The best tutorial ever is Don't worry about tutorials and do it.

[KOTK]

Think Nike.

Just Do It.